JONES DAY TALKS®: Perspectives and Pathways: Life as a First-Generation Lawyer

Each lawyer who is the first in their family to attend law school (and, in many cases, college) forges a unique path to a legal career. In this podcast, the Firm’s Rasha Gerges Shields, Abe Hester, and Stephen Scott share stories from their journeys as “first-generation” lawyers.

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Dave Dalton:

Jones Day has about 2400 lawyers in more than 40 offices worldwide. 2400 lawyers means 2400 unique stories. Why they picked a career in the law, how they arrived here, what they like most about their work, and on and on.

But There's, an interesting subset here of lawyers who we'll call first generation professionals or lawyers, meaning they come from a background or family where one might not necessarily expect them to practice law for a premier multinational firm. We have three lawyers with us today who fit that description. Their stories are compelling, interesting, and inspirational. Stick around for an interesting discussion. I'm Dave Dalton. You're listening to JONES DAY TALKS®.

Dallas Associate, Abe Hester represents and advises employers in a variety of labor and employment matters, including HR policies, compensation practices, and state law compliance. He maintains an active pro bono practice ranging from supporting the firm's constitutional policing and civil justice reform initiative, to providing legal representation to individuals with claims for asylum through the firm's border Project.

Associate Stephen Scott, based in Pittsburgh, is a litigator whose practice includes mass torts, spinoffs, and distribution agreements and construction projects, among other matters. He also advises manufacturers in delivering emerging technology to end users and consumers. He dedicates his pro bono work to the firm's Constitutional Police Reform Initiative within the city of Pittsburgh.

In Los Angeles, partner Rasha Shields is a former federal prosecutor with nearly 20 years of first chair trial and appellate experience. Rasha defends companies and executives in high stakes litigation. She has an active pro bono and public service practice and Rasha serves on the firm's Diversity Committee and on the Constitutional Policing and Civil Justice Reform Task Force. And notably, for purposes of today's discussion, she immigrated from Egypt, and is a first generation professional. Rasha, Stephen, Abe, thanks so much for being here today.

Abe Hester:

Well, thanks for having us, Dave.

Dave Dalton:

We do a lot of podcasts here at Jones Day and we're coming up on 200 I think since we launched this. But these are some of my favorite programs, the Perspectives and Pathways podcasts that we do. And it was great information for potential lawyers here, law students, public at large. There are great insights that come out of these programs. So I look forward to this and I really appreciate your three being here.

So Let's, go to Rasha first. Rasha, you and I have talked before, several times actually. You're probably sick of me, but let's bring people who haven't heard from you before up to speed. Talk about your family background and how you ended up at UC Irvine and UCLA for law school? Talk about how you got there.

Rasha Gerges Shields:

Thank you, Dave. It's a pleasure to be here, and thank you for the question. Yes, my family and I immigrated to the United States from Egypt when I was two years old. I came straight to a little city called Pico Rivera in California and we had pretty low economic means. And I was a public school kid all the way from kindergarten through law school.

And I would say I kind of stumbled my way through success. My family's very traditional, conservative. I had to live at home, so when I was choosing between colleges and law school, it was whatever I can drive to from Pico Rivera. And so I ended up at UC Irvine and then to law school. And then I declared my independence and moved out of the house after my first year and a half of law school. But it was really just seeing the work that my parents did and how hard they worked to get us opportunities, made me really driven to succeed.

Dave Dalton:

Talk about your mom and dad and growing up and what that was like.

Rasha Gerges Shields:

Yeah, my parents, they had a decent life in Egypt, but we were Coptic Christians and so that had a little bit of concern of persecution there. And so they wanted a better life for their family here in America and religious freedoms and things like that.

And they were very blue collar workers. My dad was a math teacher back in Egypt and came here to the US and took on multiple jobs. And ended up in the shipping and handling area where he's loading and unloading big tractor trailer trucks worth of material and that was his day-to-day job. And my mom worked for the county as a clerk.

So that's kind of how I grew up. And saw them kind of work the grind, if you will, of 9:00 to 5:00 jobs, but at the same time, working really hard to make a family life and ability for us to live here in the US.

Dave Dalton:

Good, solid middle class living and that's all great. Did they direct you, push you, encourage you? Or when did you feel like, "Mom and dad believe in me and maybe I could go do this?"

Rasha Gerges Shields:

They always thought that I can do anything I wanted to do. I would say within my culture, they're like, "Really, you want to be a lawyer? Why do you want to be a lawyer? Everyone's a doctor." Lawyers were just a little bit more foreign concept for them.

And I graduated high school almost 30 years ago. And when I was starting college, all of my community, it was like biology, biology, biology degrees, and I was the one with the poli-sci degree. So it was just a different environment for them, but they didn't understand what I wanted to do but always encouraged me to do it.

Dave Dalton:

So where's this come from then? You've got parents that are doing things that are different. You were kind of I guess steered or by peers or inclination maybe. "Okay, I'm going to chase a medical career or bioscience or something." Law, huh?

Rasha Gerges Shields:

I can trace it back to when I was in fourth grade. I had a teacher who I think was a reformed lawyer. So she had abandoned the legal profession for this. And I think that's the only lawyer I ever knew growing up. But in fourth grade I had to write a paper on what I wanted to be when I grew up.

And I told her I couldn't decide between being a lawyer or being a teacher and she told me that lawyers made more money. So I said, "Okay." So my paper was being on how to be a lawyer and kind of stuck with me ever since. And confirmed in high school when I did a little mock trial and things like that.

Dave Dalton:

Do you still have that paper by any chance?

Rasha Gerges Shields:

No, I have no idea where it is. It might actually be in my mom's garage.

Dave Dalton:

All right. Probably is. You'll dig it up somewhere. Okay, one more thing, Rasha, and I'm going to read directly from your bio on the Jones Day.com website. "She immigrated from Egypt and is a first generation professional." That is so personal and honest. And we have 2500 lawyers and 2500 bios. We don't see a lot of stuff like that. How has your backstory impacted your professional development?

Rasha Gerges Shields:

I think it's very impactful. I think it shows kind of the grit and the drive to make it from being a first generation and immigrant and not knowing this field at all and starting off. And kind of the community that you have to build on your own and the roadmap that you have to develop on your own. So it says a lot about who I am. So that's why I thought it was important to put in the bio.

And also when I was a prosecutor, that skillset of being able to relate to people, came in so handy when I was doing jury trials. And people can relate to that a little bit more and you can relate to a lot of different types of people, both from different socioeconomic classes, different cultures. So to me, it's very personal and it does mean a lot and it has impacted my career quite a bit.

Dave Dalton:

For sure. Rasha, we'll come back to you in a few minutes, but I want to move over to Stephen Scott. You and I have talked before too, haven't we?

Stephen Scott:

Yes.

Dave Dalton:

At least a video and maybe a podcast and so forth. And you're always great, so It's great to catch up again. WVU, West Virginia University, both undergrad and law school. By the way, you're my favorite mountaineer, Stephen, just so you know.

Stephen Scott:

Thank you, I appreciate that.

Dave Dalton:

Who helped you get here? Tell me about your story.

Stephen Scott:

Yeah, so I owe it all of course to my mom and grandma, who I call Nan-nan. So they're, my world. They're the reason why I was able to aspire to where I am and beyond. And even when it came to thinking about what I want to do with my life, I remember watching my mom and Nan-nan sacrifice so that I could then pay it forward to be where I'm at, both in terms of those that I meet, who are like me. Those that also come from similar backgrounds of a single parent household. And just generally to my community that was in my Village of Shepherdstown, West Virginia to get me to Pittsburgh, PA.

Dave Dalton:

Okay. So there are a lot of ways anyone's life could go and you obviously had very powerful women in your life that directed you, encouraged you. Was there a breakthrough moment when you said, "Geez, these people believe in me, I can go do something pretty important with my life." When was that? Were you really young? Was it later? What happened, do you think?

Stephen Scott:

Since I was five or six, it was very early on. I remember watching Judge Judy and Judge Joe Brown with my mom. And being like, "Mom, I want to be like them one day." And she is like, "Yeah, whatever you want to do, you know I hear. I love you. We'll, make it happen."

Dave Dalton:

Right on.

Stephen Scott:

And so she stayed true to that. Throughout my life, I know I watched as my mom balanced her full-time job as a special education teacher's aid in pre-K. I watched her do her part-time role of doing community college credits just to maintain her certifications. And her all the time role as my mom first and foremost. Doing all that to take care of me. I really never felt that she didn't help me.

Dave Dalton:

And a special education teacher, that takes a special degree of empathy. Did that rub off on you in terms of how you're approaching your career and people and peers and pro bono and everything? That's an interesting background.

Stephen Scott:

Yeah, substantially. I know our profession is known sometimes to be very adversarial, but oftentimes I use those moments of conflict, or when we had an impasse say with opposing counsel and settlement, to still remind myself that there still can be grace in these moments.

Oftentimes I find that whenever there is an impasse, sometimes just getting to know the person a little bit, or really just understand their perspective, goes a long way in a resolution. Because we're all people at the end of the day, and sometimes there are things that go on in our lives that inform what we're not saying. And so sometimes taking the step back goes volumes.

And I know that has helped me in terms of my professional career and building relationships, especially with some repeat attorneys that I see in practice. So now instead of having the heavy lift of trying to persuade them to my side, I know that we're going to have an easier conversation to meet somewhere in the middle but then also leverage those relationships for the best outcome for our clients.

Dave Dalton:

It's interesting how what our parents do and how they interact with world rubs off on us. One of my best friends in high school, both of his parents were deaf. He had this uncanny perception for people. Body language and what they were thinking and facial expressions.

So I think if you've got a mother who worked in special ed and was just being people around who maybe had things, challenges that you and I Couldn't, imagine, that's got to help you watching her interact with those people. So that's very underrated kind of experience I think.

Stephen Scott:

Yeah, especially when it comes to patience. I watched my mom just throughout any situation that happened, whether it be at school, what happened at school, whether my personal life, or even of course taking up for me when it comes necessary. I'm her baby son. I still witness her give a level of patience and grace to really understand.

Even though things are happening I can still show love, I can still show support. And sometimes love is simply just being slow to conflict or slow to anger. And sometimes love really means being able to take a step back and just pause before you act and make the next step.

I think for us too at Jones Day when we're thinking about high level work products, sometimes you really do need to focus on those skills of just being patient. To pause and to really focus in on what's my next path ahead? As I'm navigating complex issues or really talking with difficult opposing counsel.

Dave Dalton:

Great, great insight. Things develop quickly but if you can take that breath, whatever. One more question before we move on to Abe. You're in Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh office?

Stephen Scott:

Yes.

Dave Dalton:

Is your mother and your grandmother, are they still in West Virginia?

Stephen Scott:

So they still live in West Virginia but this summer they are with me.

Dave Dalton:

All right, I was going to ask you how often you get home. Turns out home comes to you, right?

Stephen Scott:

Yes, but also I make sure to take the trip. I know three, well I guess I should say this, three and a half hours for most people seem a lot. But you'd be surprised Pittsburgh to Shepherdstown because I live in the eastern panhandle, easy trip. I still go down to West Virginia out through Maryland just because of how the roads work. But then even to get to the capital of West Virginia where I clerked, it's three and three and a half hours as well. So it's nothing for me. I'm on the road a lot.

Dave Dalton:

I've not done that particular drive but I've driven through that part of the country. It's beautiful. So there are worst ways to spend three and a half hours, that's for sure. So let's, flip over to Abe.

Abe, we weren't ignoring you. Thank you for your patience. You and I have not spoken before but I know of you by reputation. I've heard only great things, so thanks for joining us today.

Abe Hester:

Yeah, of course, David. I'm really happy to be here with Stephen and Rasha, two of my favorite people to work with at the firm so far. And I'm happy to work with you guys again.

Dave Dalton:

Nice to hear. You're in very good company with those two. Let's talk about your background. The University of North Texas, then Washington University in St. Louis for law school. Talk about your background a little bit.

Abe Hester:

Yes, in St. Louis is important, as I learned once I enrolled and it wasn't in Washington State.

Dave Dalton:

I went to Miami University in Ohio. I have aunts that still think I spent four years in Florida, so there you go. So I feel your pain there. Washington University in St. Louis.

Abe Hester:

Right.

Dave Dalton:

Talk about your background and how you got there? And you're a first generation professional or lawyer also. Tell us a little bit about how you grew up.

Abe Hester:

Yeah, so my mother is from Germany and I'm from Germany as well. I moved here actually I was six or seven years old. And my dad is from here, from the States, a small town in Tennessee. He was in the Army. Thankfully he got stationed in Germany, otherwise I wouldn't be here, quite literally I think.

And so we moved back to the States, he got stationed here. I guess the rest is history as far as my immigration is concerned. I went to the University of North Texas because unlike Rasha, I didn't want to live at home. My mom always told me, she's like, "When you're 18, you're out." They would say, "We flipped burgers." And they got their college degree so you can do the same. I think inflation made that a little more tricky, so I delivered pizza instead.

But the University of North Texas was a great school. I really enjoyed being there. I had a lot of great opportunities to do debate, to do the ROTC program there, which is how I ended up commissioning into the Army myself. I can't really trade that experience for anything else. I met a lot of great mentors and that's really how I ended up deciding to go to law school.

I was between teaching and going to law school, similar to fourth grade Rasha. And I was also told, "You'll make more money as an attorney." But my debate coach Lou T, who is a wonderful man, said that he was just about to go to law school, decided to coach debate instead. And he said, "All my friends who went to law school take better vacations." So I figured, "Hey, if I want to help my parents retire and I also want to sit on the beach occasionally, maybe I should go to law school."

And so I met a great mentor-

Dave Dalton:

There you go.

Abe Hester:

Who introduced me to Washington University in St. Louis. He told me, "You got to apply." Because I was looking at other law schools in Texas since I was in Texas, and then some other schools around the country. I'd never heard of Wash U. And I didn't actually see the campus until my first day there because my car broke down when we were supposed to go to admitted students week and I just couldn't go, I couldn't afford to fix it.

And so I remember showing up on campus in August of gosh, 2018 and I just felt so blessed. And it was a really lucky place to be I think because I had no clue what was going on there. It was an awesome experience. And similar to Stephen, I think a lot of what shaped my early life was my mother. She's a hospice nurse and continues to be a hospice nurse now.

And getting the opportunity to speak people who are of course unfortunately dying, but a lot of people are I think prepared to go, lets you hear the phrase, "The one thing I regret," a lot. And you could take a lot from someone saying they're single kind of life regret, especially when they're in the final stages of their life. And a lot of people will tell you things that are so easy to fix in your own life.

And so I try to incorporate that in some things. Being kinder to people. Like Stephen said, understanding the other side, working with the other side, especially in the legal context. Taking more photos and things like that. And so I think that those have really shaped my professional life but also my personal life up to this point.

I think that's really shaped where I am as a lawyer. And I think as a first generation lawyer we often lean heavily on the experiences of our parents even if they're not really the same thing that we're going through in the moment.

Dave Dalton:

Sure. You know what, I'm curious, because I have friends whose parents were in the military, career military. Were you one of those military kids that changed schools every year? I mean dad was always being deployed somewhere else or whatever the term is? Was that you growing up?

Abe Hester:

So thankfully not. I moved once and that really has to do with the fact that my parents are older. So I have three sisters who are, one is like 20 years older than I am. And so I was at a pretty late stage in my dad's career by the time we moved to the States. And so gosh, we moved here in the early 2000s. I think he retired in 2005. And so I got to settle down in central Texas.

But I really think that my mom, she ran our house. And she brought Germany with us and so it was very funny having that kind of experience being in Texas but always being in a German household. But avoiding a lot of that military rigamarole. And my folks didn't want me to join. And of course I guess my act of rebellion was joining the military, which is maybe the lamest way to rebel. I should have, I don't know, gone on some cross country trips and toured in a band or something.

Dave Dalton:

Sure, sure. Let's go. This is the question I like asking younger partners and associates. The three of you are obviously ambitious, smart, energetic. A lot of things you could have done with your life, right? Sometimes I catch people off guard. I say, "Why are you a lawyer? Why the law?" Let's start with Rasha, tell us.

Rasha Gerges Shields:

Well thank you for including me in the younger category still. But I would say, what keeps me with the law and what made me really attracted to the law, is how impactful it is on people's lives. And to me it's just something that there are so many ways to give back to my community, to other communities that don't have as much law as power.

And so that is a way to uplift people in ways that other professions just don't have the same kind of ring to me for. So for me, it's giving back to the community and uplifting both my family's abilities through financial means, but also being in a position to really make a difference and change policy, change laws. Those are the things that really have kept me in the legal profession.

Dave Dalton:

For sure. Let's go back to Abe then to Stephen. Abe, why the law?

Abe Hester:

Well, I really think that I'm just a lawyer until my rap career takes off if I'm being honest. But I always like problem solving-

Dave Dalton:

What a talented crew.

Abe Hester:

And I think that's the biggest thing. The law was the one thing that really made me feel like I could engage in a creative process that was also impactful and not just a cultural sense. I think a lot of us as lawyers like to write, that really impacts our culture pretty significantly, and I don't think anybody would disagree with that.

But ultimately you're not really able to push our society in a significant direction unless you engage in the law in the United States. I think we're a very law-driven country and I think that we will continue to be that for a long time. And so if you want to impact someone's life in a practical way, I think the best way to do that is engaging in the law.

And especially the three of us have done a lot of pro bono work, you see that how quickly and impactfully you can be when you have a basic understanding of some of the law that undergirds people's lives.

Dave Dalton:

Sure, sure. Mr. Scott, over to you again. Again, you could have done a lot of things with your life. You're smart, you had a great support system, people encouraging you along the way. You ended up at WVU for law school. Why that?

Stephen Scott:

It really all started when I was younger. My idea of why the law was going to be the symbolic representation of what my family was able to do and get through. So at first I thought I'd be a divorce attorney. Because that was going to be my thing. Where I was going to tell my mom like, "Hey, we went through this, I'm here to put an end to that past, and look at our future ahead."

And so then when I got into law school, I started to shift my perspective. And I think what we've all talked about as a service to others, what I realized is I could then dream for myself. And that as I was paying it forward, I could also have those dreams for myself forward. So even though I still wanted to help my mom, I still wanted to help my community, I was then thinking about in what ways am I best positioned? And where are my interests?

So as I started to go through law school, I had a experience with a Northern District of West Virginia Judge Irene Keeley, where I did a summer internship with her. Then of course I summered at Jones Day. And then I, after law school, clerked for the Honorable Stephanie D. Backer of the Fourth Circuit.

Of course, during the pandemic, I was a pandemic clerk, so I saw the gambit of things. And what I ultimately realized is I just have an interest in these emerging issues that affect all our lives. And what can I do to help shape that and become more accessible for everyone?

It's been very helpful and it's been something for me as I think why the law? I also think what is my part in the law? Which I think continues to be an evolving aspect. This idea that as I'm working on technology related issues with autonomous vehicles. Or when I think about pharmaceutical litigation or credit reporting, how am I shaping what the law is in my advocacy, in my briefing?

And also in the other attorneys that I meet with, how am I making this impact? Because each and every time I work on something, I'm having an impact. And I'm trying to be conscientious of how I can still be true to that five-year-old me talking to my mom, even now and forward.

Dave Dalton:

Sure, sure. Well, speaking of talking to other people and engagement and involvement, Jones Day puts a premium on mentoring, both formal and informal. Abe, talk about mentoring at Jones Day. Are there people? And you don't have to name names, but are there people who've helped you through this stage of your career?

Abe Hester:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean I'm happy to name names.

Dave Dalton:

Go ahead.

Abe Hester:

Wonderful folks who have been huge mentors to me. Dave, I mean I have this curse, I think. All the formal mentors Who've been assigned to me have gone to wonderful in-house opportunities since I've started at the firm. And so I don't know exactly what the Abe Hester pipeline or why it formed, but it sure has.

But I mean informally, there have been some fantastic people too, that I always name. Greg Castanias in DC, and Enrique down here in Dallas, have been huge, huge mentors to me. When I started at the Dallas office, I was the only Black attorney at the time. And Enrique, he noted this.

And one day he brings me in his office and he says, "Hey, hey listen, there are people in the legal community, there are people at the firm that have different experiences than you, but they're going to appreciate you for the work you do. And you're going to be a little uncomfortable sometimes. People might be talking about growing up going skiing or whatever things, experiences you may not have had. But ultimately you should know that there's a lot of folks like us here at the firm."

And that was really comforting to hear and to know. Because when you don't have lawyers in your family and when you don't grow up around lawyers, you have a very specific image, especially of the kind of lawyers that we are, of this kind of pedigreed, familial legacy, and things like that. That kind of shapes the experience in different way than what we more typically see in government work, is someone coming to this country maybe working their way up or coming from a poor background. And it does make it a little bit harder to relate to I think.

And then that bit of mentoring and that bit of interpersonal relationship really changed my comfortability level I think around other attorneys, which is so important. Because at the end of the day, I mean I can learn how to write emotion, this, that, or the other. Someone can walk me through how to work on a brief. But the hard thing I think is the personal, the soft skills. And being able to develop them around people who make you comfortable is really amazing.

And Greg in DC, I mean he's just always been a huge advocate for me. We met before I joined the firm and he really was a person who encouraged me to look into big law because I didn't think that that was a kind of place I could really see myself. I didn't think that was a place I would fit in. And he said, "Listen." He's the son of Greek immigrants and they fought to make a better life in this country and we can all do the same for ourselves and future generations.

We shouldn't be afraid to be that next step for our family. And so the mentoring at the firm has been amazing and it is something that I will always scream from the rooftops.

Dave Dalton:

Sure. Okay. Let's rewind for a second. You were the only Black lawyer in the Dallas office?

Abe Hester:

Yes, when I started. I don't think I was the only Black lawyer in the Dallas office ever. I think it was just kind of a circumstance of history.

Dave Dalton:

Okay, talk a second about that. How did that feel? Did you feel extra pressure? Or the same? Or I don't mean to overstate it, but I'm just wondering, that's a unique kind of set of circumstances.

Abe Hester:

No, I mean I felt less pressure because you Can't fire the only Black lawyer in the office, right? No, I'm kidding. No, I did. I did feel some pressure. I don't think that anybody made me feel different, but at the same time, you're aware of it. You walk the hallway and you're like, "Oh do I need to code switch or things like that? Can I be my authentic self?"

And luckily speaking with Enrique and other folks in the office, I felt like I could be my authentic self. I've always been able to be Black and proud in the office just like I am in my day-to-Day life, and It's been a really great experience. And now thankfully we've been able to welcome other Black attorneys since the office and it's been great to build that community.

And so I like to think that we're always paying it forward and making it easier I think for other Black attorneys in this profession. As I'm sure, Stephen is also well aware of, Black men are not very present in big law and we continue to be more and more present. And we do that because of the help of ourselves but also of our many allies around the firm, that being Black women or just allies in general.

Dave Dalton:

Sure, sure. You said all that very well. Thank you. In fact, if this doesn't work out, you've got a future in podcasting. You nail your points.

Rasha, talk about mentoring. Either side of it, in terms of when you were starting here or now with newer lawyers. Or talk about mentoring at Jones Day.

Rasha Gerges Shields:

Yeah. And for a first generation professional, mentoring is so important. And not just mentoring but sponsorship. And when I came to Jones Day, I definitely found that I have lifelong sponsors here at the firm.

But as a first generation professional, you don't really have the roadmap. You don't know what are the steps that you need to take to get where you want to be or even where you want to be. You don't even know what the options are.

I stumbled my way through and found clerking. To me clerking is one of the most important parts of my career development and that was something I stumbled upon. And then from there, went on to meet great mentors and sponsors that opened up doors down the road.

On my end, I focus on mentoring at the firm, but more broadly, I'm very committed to mentoring in the legal profession as a whole. And through pipeline programs and going back to high schools and college and law schools. And teaching people about what are the things I didn't know? I didn't know all the business etiquette stuff that are all the unwritten rules. I didn't know what to order at a restaurant that I had never been to that's super fancy and I had never been.

So all of the things that I had stumbled through, I tried to teach down the road, starting with high school students. And we do this great program at the firm through Just the Beginning Program, where we teach business etiquette and networking skills. Those are two very important things to professional development that I think a lot of students and a lot of people that don't come from a more professional background, just really are clueless about.

And so those are the things I've really put a lot of my energy in, to making sure other people can have a little bit of a closer roadmap. Or understand the skills that they need to succeed a little more than I did back in the day.

Dave Dalton:

What kind of questions do you get from younger lawyers? Someone's new, a new lawyer, or a summer associate, or someone who's been with the firm just a few months or even a year. What do they ask you? What kinds of things are they curious about?

Rasha Gerges Shields:

Gosh, I would say I think a lot of times when I'm dealing with law students in particular, especially diverse law students, and it goes back to some of the statements that Abe made and others, is big law even a place where I should be? Is this something that? Or I really want to give back to the community and so I'm going to go do public interest work or other things like that.

And so to me, it's trying to explain to them that you can do both. You can give back to the community and also be in big law. And really all the ways you can harness the resources of big firm to accomplish the things that you want to do and give back to the community. So it's just educating them about the opportunities here at big law and of Jones Day in particular.

And letting them know that there is space for them here. And not to get discouraged if they go to some kind of firm event where they're talking about topics that they can't relate to. To again, kind of open the door and understand that there are a lot of different people at the firm and at big law generally. And so that they are welcome and that they have a place here.

Dave Dalton:

Okay. We talked with Abe a moment ago about his background and so forth. But I was curious about how your experience currently in the Army National Guard has affected or shaped your professional development. Can you talk about that for a second?

Abe Hester:

Yeah, of course. There's a few obvious things I think that you get from a military service. I think that I've learned to be more disciplined and more patient. And I've learned the value of running for very long times while people yell at you. And I think that that translates into professional life because we're always running laps at the firm.

No, but I think that the biggest thing you take away from military service, and I think that it's somewhat understated, is that you really learn to work with people from many different backgrounds, and similar I think in the way that we do with the firm. So people join from everywhere. I think most of the recruits in the military come from Texas, New York, and California, and that's just a population thing.

But people join the military because their grandfathers were in the military. People join the military because they want to take that next step. Maybe they came from poverty and they see that as a way to really climb the social ladder, right? There are a lot of opportunities and benefits that come with military service that can make it easier to do things like get a degree later on in life, buy a home, and things like that. Things that may otherwise be closed off to folks.

But because you're meeting people from so many different backgrounds, so many different perspectives, there's a lot of friction at first. But basic training, I remember people getting in fistfights early on because they just didn't get along for one reason or another. There's no cultural synthesis with the guy from small town Alabama versus the guy from the inner cities of New York right off the bat. But after some time, you really learn that we're part of a team. We're here for one goal and that is of course to complete the mission.

And ultimately that starts to bring you together. You start to learn that there is so much that connects one person to another person, and especially when you're on a team. You have a literal common enemy when you're in the Army. And then of course at the firm we have common enemies in the sense that we have opposing counsel or whoever is on the other side in a case.

And I think that once we start to kind of focus on that, we see less of our differences and we really see what brings us together. And I think that that part of my military experience has really shaped me professionally. I try to be open to whoever from wherever they're from, and just immediately jump on those things that connect us together.

What are we both laughing about? What is the thing that is making both of us grimace in a moment or something? Let's talk about that. Let's not talk about what divides us. And then other than that, it makes it really easy to get up early in the morning and work out, which is good because people don't usually email you at 5:00 AM but they might text you or email you at 7:00 PM to get some work done. And so taking my early mornings has made my life much easier.

Dave Dalton:

Right. Well thank you for those insights. And at risk of cliche, thank you for your service too. So let's move on a little bit. Looking at your three bios, I was very impressed by the commitment to pro bono. It seems like you're all actively engaged in the community. And, Rasha, uses it to give back.

And let's talk with Stephen. You've talked several times about your roots in Appalachia, some of the community involvement you've been part of. Talk a bit about the pro bono experiences or the community engagement that's meant the most to you.

Stephen Scott:

Yeah, especially talking about my Appalachian roots. Yeah. I'm very, very proud of being a West Virginian. I like to say that a true mountaineer seeks to serve, both in terms of whether it be an undergrad or law school. I keep that mentality of the state of the university throughout where I go.

So for me, the two main pro bono projects that stick out in my mind, one is related to the Vet Legs Program and the other is related to constitutional police reform work that the firm does.

Dave Dalton:

Okay.

Stephen Scott:

First with the veterans piece, I have the pleasure of assisting a 99-year-old World War II veteran. Working with her caregiver, her son, to make sure that she received the care that she'd need. Her health was declining and so we were able to secure her assistance full-time care at a nursing home until her passing.

And what's in that moment, of course thinking about her history and how she served the country as one, the few remaining World War II veterans. Especially thinking about how old she was. And some of the stories that I heard her son tell about her.

So by the end, once we were able to get her assistance and we learned of her passing, her son actually wrote this very nice note to us. He addressed and after her passing and her obituary, they again noted Jones Day's assistance through her work. And I keep that too because it was my first pro bono major project when I started.

It just felt personal to me because as he mentioned, and as I remember, we were all a team. Even though of course we were navigating the law, we're also helping navigating his role as a caregiver to his mom. So that really stood out, especially very special to me.

And then the other related to the constitutional police reform work. So I had the honor of working with Laura Ellsworth on the creation of the Here Foundation. Laura is very big on getting people together to have conversations and address institutional and long systemic problems in our country.

And yet again, Laura brought and showed me how you can really bring everyone to the table. So Leon Ford, who experienced an incident of police brutality, worked with the chief of police, the former chief of police of Pittsburgh, to create a community-based board that focuses on funding community-level projects. So it's more of a bottom up approach to this widespread issue of police brutality.

The board is focusing on ensuring safety in the community by bringing police, community leaders, civil rights activists, corporate, nonprofit professionals, all together to problem solve. To bring convenings of different issues such as gun violence and safety together. So that way there are measurable goals and that there is actually funding related to on the ground work that you can see and you can constantly assess progress.

So even helping with the foundation creation work, whether it be on the IP side, the corporate side, or really just the strategy, it just blew me away. To say I had a hand in the larger scale efforts for all of us to have better relations when it comes to our safety and our autonomy as well as those of our neighbors, whether or not they are in police uniform, meant a lot to me.

Dave Dalton:

Sure. And, Abe, you've also been involved in constitutional policing and civil justice reform at the firm and that task force. Talk about that.

Abe Hester:

So I was a summer associate the summer that George Floyd was murdered. And I was staying in St. Louis because with COVID, well I wasn't coming down to Dallas to work. And I didn't want to go back to my folks' place because like I mentioned, my mom's a hospice nurse and of course as an essential service during COVID, she was still going and seeing patients. So minimizing the risk there, I stayed in St. Louis.

And because of what happened in Ferguson when George Floyd was murdered, there was a lot of heat in the City of St. Louis as well. The city felt it pretty heavily. And so when I started at the firm, when I found out about the Constitutional Policing Project, I jumped right on it. It felt like I could finally really engage. And not that I think going to protests and things like that isn't also engaging in the change we're trying to see in this country, but being able to do it as part of my career was really amazing.

And so most of my involvement, especially during my first year at the firm, was with the Minneapolis Police Department investigation, which resulted in a consent decree and a big reform of the city after we ... I mean we spent as a team, 1000s and 1000s of hours reviewing police body camera footage for use of force incidents. We spent time reviewing emails between police officers, to look for hints of racism and things like that.

And really being able to dig down and have an impact, even on a community that wasn't my own, was so significant. I mean at the end of the day, we're all linked together as Americans and especially as Black Americans, we're linked very closely to things like constitutional policing and these civil justice issues that are an ongoing struggle. And so being able to engage with that in the firm, getting the full support of the firm, it's been amazing.

And we do work sometimes that we don't necessarily really feel just sometimes because it's just work. Sometimes work is just work. But really I felt like the Constitutional Policing and Civil Justice Reform Project was work that made me feel like I was doing more than just my day-to-day. And it just really sits with me and I talk about it a lot. When people ask me why do I like being an attorney? It's like the first thing that comes to mind.

Dave Dalton:

And think about the things you were describing, reviewing intra police department emails, looking at body cam video. Most lawyers, 99% of lawyers on the planet, never get to do something like that. What a valuable experience earlier in your career.

Abe Hester:

Absolutely. And It's an interesting experience because it's not something that a lot of people do just generally. And it actually does I think give me a better appreciation for what good law enforcement looks like and how important good law enforcement actually is in our communities.

There were a lot of times we would watch these videos and there would be nothing wrong. We wouldn't flag them, we'd just move on. It's because I think most of the time, people are trying to do the right thing, but the only way we can ensure that people are doing the right thing all the time is by making sure that they're held accountable.

And so I think that having that experience early on has given me a better appreciation of what right looks like. And hopefully that's something I can take further and further with me in my life as we as attorneys get more and more opportunities to press our country in the right direction.

Dave Dalton:

Right. Rasha, you again heavily involved in the LA community too, I think. You want to reflect on some of your experiences recent?

Rasha Gerges Shields:

Yes, and pro bono's always been a very important part of my practice ever since I came to the firm as an associate. And then I went to public service as a prosecutor and came back to the firm. But my heart is always in public service. And I was very grateful for the firm, both in terms of its commitment generally across the board. From we filed the brief all the way to the US Supreme Court against the former President's travel ban when it first came out.

But more recently, like Stephen and a constitutional policing has been very near and dear to my heart. And it's something that I've been very actively involved in. The firm fully supported me being, participating as an advisory committee to the Los Angeles Police Commission right after the murder of George Floyd. And then fully blessed my participation earlier this year. Los Angeles mayor, Karen Bass appointed me to be on the Los Angeles Police Commission, which is a five member board that oversees the entire Los Angeles police Department.

And so every week, every Tuesday aside from holidays, we have hearings which we're hearing from the public. And then also going into closed session and making determinations on whether or not certain cases were an appropriate use of force or not? So every time I'm going through multiple cases and reviewing the body cam video, reviewing all of the workup that came up to it, all of the investigation. And making that determination on behalf of the commission.

Talk about being so impactful and talk about putting really your money where your mouth is when you say that we are committed to a cause, to go all the way there where we're now part of ... Supporting me being on that commission, it says a lot for the firm given that it is a very time intensive process. And the firm didn't blink and they said, "Yes, this is consistent with our constitutional policing task force. This is this type of stuff that we're encouraging." So that just means volumes to me.

Dave Dalton:

Yeah, I remember when that happened for you earlier this year and congratulations on it. And how impressive, and as you said, the firm stepped up and backed it 100%. So what a responsibility. We could almost stop this program right here, but we won't because we have one more question.

If you could look back 10, 15, 20 years ago, depending on what your perspective and your timeline is, Stephen, what would you tell the young Stephen about how you got here? What he better do? What do you pay attention to? But what would you tell the younger self?

Stephen Scott:

Okay, because now I'm thinking this is like me high school.

Dave Dalton:

Right.

Stephen Scott:

Like 15. Especially as I think about me 15 years ago, that was a real transition pivot point too because my biggest concern 15 years ago was being able to afford where I was heading, my future. I knew that going to college meant I had to have funds that were not available.

I was a child of an educator and a lab tech, both of which relied on their high school degrees at the time, that gave them access to opportunities that are just not the same today. There are certain levels of degrees that you have, had to have. And the cost to get those degrees are just not the same. So for me, 15 years ago, me and my mom would open the book of scholarship opportunities and apply for every single one of them, even if I qualified by virtue of a sentence or I had a cousin that was...

Because I remember the one that comes to mind is the Charlestown Races and Track you had to have a relative or family member. And we're like, "Oh yeah, we think your cousin who so-and-so is related. So by virtue, you can apply for this." We were just online.

Dave Dalton:

What a beautiful lesson, right? Where there's a will there's a way. I mean you could have looked at that big number, here's what college is going to cost, here's what law school cost. Oh, forget it. But nah, that wasn't the way you did it.

Stephen Scott:

Right. And I just am very thankful and blessed. I thank God that for undergrad and law school, I was able to take care of it and have it fully funded. So me thinking 15 years ago, 20 years ago, I would tell myself, "Don't worry, your steps are ordered."

Dave Dalton:

Wow.

Stephen Scott:

Because the level of anxiety, of anxiousness, where even though I had these dreams, there were moments when I just didn't know how it was going to be handled. But in all things it worked together for my good. And so I'm just so thankful.

And I would tell myself because there are so many sleepless nights. So many times to just get involved in so many different activities to be this well-rounded person to access where I need you to be. But it was always ordered and taken care of me.

I would also probably tell myself, "You are the first, but you won't be the last." And so even for me and my family, yeah I was the first. But now that I have access these resources, I'm accessing a higher level education, I'm accessing jobs and opportunities that weren't available, I can now make a way, not only for my family, for my kids, my little Stevie as I'm a big Stevie, to a son or a daughter. But in it all, I can still help someone else be the first. So they're not the last as well.

Dave Dalton:

Great, great sentiment there. Abe, what did the younger Abe need to know?

Abe Hester:

I've thought about this a lot because people ask you, would you go back and change things? I don't think I would just because I don't know, butterfly effect, you don't end up where you're at and I'm happy here at the firm and I'm happy where I'm at.

But I think that, like Stephen, there was a lot of anxiety growing up where you're just not sure if you're going to make it. Like a lot of people at the firm, I had a lot of supporters growing up. And I think that I would tell my younger self to just believe them. Don't think that people are just saying things to you to be nice. When people believe in you, be the person that they believe in and take it to heart.

There were too many times that my parents or my friends or something would say like, "Yeah, we think you can do this, push yourself." And I just thought, "Well I'm not sure. I don't think that that's true." Simply because we kind of have that doubt and it's hard to shake.

But if I could go back and shake my young self, that's exactly what I would do. I'd say, "Hey, believe in your own BS, man, you're not just making things up. There's a reason why you're saying what you're saying, and there's a reason why people are saying things to you."

So I would tell that to my younger self and I tell that to people all the time. I tell that to people in interviews sometimes. They're like, "Hey, I come from a lower class background or something. Do you have any tips?" And I'm like, "You're here. We wouldn't have interviewed you if we didn't believe in you." And it's the same thing, right? People aren't going to take a chance on you unless they believe in you. So be that person that they take a chance on.

Dave Dalton:

Great, great stuff. Rasha, take us home. What would you tell the young Rasha? Or young aspiring woman lawyer who wants to get to Jones Day or Jones Day type situation someday?

Rasha Gerges Shields:

Yeah, I have to echo both Stephen and Abe. It's this feeling that Everything's going to work out. It's just hearing that little assurance can make a difference and really that you deserve to be where you are. So put the whole imposter syndrome to rest.

You deserve it. Everything's going to work out and take a moment to just enjoy where you are. It's so hard sometimes to take that moment and I give that advice to myself as well now, not only 15 years ago, but you deserve to be where you are.

Dave Dalton:

Of course. All three of you do. Hey, I'm not just saying this, I've done a lot of these programs. This has been one of the best. This has been a lot of fun. I hope I get to talk to all three of you, either as a group or individually, again on a future program. But you guys nailed it. So thanks so much for being here today.

Abe Hester:

Thank you, Dave.

Rasha Gerges Shields:

Thank you all.

Stephen Scott:

Thank you.

Dave Dalton:

Take care.

For complete biographies and contact information for Abe, Scott, and Rasha, visit Jones Day.com. While you're there, check out our insights page where you'll find more podcasts, videos, publications, newsletters, and other pertinent content.

Subscribe to JONES DAY TALKS® at Apple Podcasts or wherever else quality podcasts can be found. JONES DAY TALKS® produced by Tom Kondolis. As always, we thank you for listening. I'm Dave Dalton. We'll talk to you next time.

Speaker 5:

Thank you for listening to JONES DAY TALKS®. Comments heard on JONES DAY TALKS® should not be construed as legal advice regarding any specific facts or circumstances. The opinions expressed on JONES DAY TALKS® are those of lawyers appearing on the program and do not necessarily reflect those of the firm. For more information, please visit Jones Day.com.