JONES DAY TALKS®: Exploring Law Firm Opportunities as a First Generation Law Student

Dave Dalton:

Welcome to today's edition of Perspectives and Pathways. According to data released by the Law School Survey of Student Engagement, 25% of students entering law schools in the fall of 2023 identified as first gen. We're defining that as students whose parents or other close relatives did not attend law school and who in many cases did not hold a four-year degree. Jones Days' Rasha Shields and Eli Jones both fit in that category and are here today to talk about their backgrounds, the transition from law school to lawyer, and advice they have for law students and new lawyers coming from similar circumstances. Rasha, Eli, thanks so much for being here today.

Rasha Shields:

Thank you for having us.

Eli Jones:

Yeah, thank you for having us.

Dave Dalton:

All right. Before we get into today's topic or subject matter, Rasha, you and I have talked before, but for people who don't know you or haven't heard you before in one of these programs, tell us a little about you and your background and how you arrived at Jones Day.

Rasha Shields:

Sure. Just a little bit of background about me. I'm a partner at Jones Day's Los Angeles office. In terms of how I got here, so long path, I was born in Cairo, Egypt, and I came to the United States with my parents when I was very young. I was about two years old. We had very modest means. We lived in a city not too far away from the City of LA. I was a public school kid from kindergarten all the way through law school. I had no family or friends who were lawyers. My uncles who immigrated with us at the same time were the first to go to college here in the United States, and my older brother and I followed their footsteps. I went to UC Irvine for undergrad and then UCLA for law school. During law school, I learned about clerking and I did a district court clerkship and then a Ninth Circuit clerkship. When I was at my Ninth Circuit clerkship, that's the first time I learned about Jones Day or really was exposed to Jones Day, and came and joined their issues and appeals group because I wanted to do a combination of trial work and appellate work.

Dave Dalton:

Last time we talked, you told me about immigrating from Egypt when you were very young. Have you ever been back?

Rasha Shields:

I have not yet been back to Egypt, which is really sad.

Dave Dalton:

You'll get there. I've got a feeling. Hey, by the way, I'll give you $5 if you'll tell us, what is UC Irvine's nickname? What's the mascot?

Rasha Shields:

Well, the anteaters. Zot, zot, zot.

Dave Dalton:

The anteaters. Rasha, you got to be tough to defend a nickname like that, so kudos to you. Anyway. So let's switch to Eli for a quick second. Eli, again, tell us about your background, where you were before you got to Jones Day, and how you got here and what you're doing now.

Eli Jones:

Well, first off, I'm an associate here in Jones Day's Pittsburgh office. I'm from a little bit north of here. A town called Erie, Pennsylvania is where I grew up. My father was a public school teacher. My mom was a small business owner. So growing up, both of them had went to college, but no one in our families before them and no one had been to law school. They have no lawyers in my immediate or my extended family. So growing up I wasn't entirely sure what I wanted to do. I did mock trial in high school and I had a local judge who was our coach say, "You kind of got a knack for this, I think you'd be good at it." So I think I took that and ran with it. I went to Duquesne University here in Pittsburgh for undergrad, and then I went to the University of Virginia for law school. And then I was a summer associate here at Jones Day in the summer of 2020, when everything first shut down because of the coronavirus. So I did a fully virtual summer here, and really appreciated the firm and how they stuck with us and how they forged a connection while we were here. So after that round, as soon as I graduated, I came back and I've been here ever since.

Dave Dalton:

Yeah, I'm familiar with Erie, Pennsylvania. I mean, it's about an hour and 20 minutes from Cleveland, honestly. I've been there for hockey tournaments. I ran the Erie Marathon, believe it or not, almost two years ago. You come from a wonderful part of the world. It's beautiful up there, the parks and everything.

Eli Jones:

It's wonderful. I hope you did not visit between fall and spring. If you're anywhere in those winter months, that's when it's not great. But no, it's a wonderful place.

Dave Dalton:

I mean, you're right on the lake, right?

Eli Jones:

Yeah.

Dave Dalton:

I've driven to Buffalo in January from Cleveland. That's no fun either. Okay. Well, good getting to know you both a little bit better. Let's talk about being a first generation lawyer. Duquesne and the University of Virginia, UC Irvine and UCLA, impressive credentials both, honestly. Having said that, how did your backgrounds, and you both described your backgrounds, your family as a little bit, how did that affect how you performed in law school, do you think? Let's go to Rasha first.

Rasha Shields:

Seeing my parents work very hard, they had a very hard work ethic and they had blue-collar jobs, and I just saw that I had this opportunity, and so I think that kind of drove me to work even harder. I will tell you, it was kind of shocking to see what summer associates made when I was in law school. I actually had some guilt around like, pretty much almost what my parents were making their entire year working, I was making it during the summer when I was getting whined and dined. So that was kind of like a shock to me and that was new, but that kind of drove me to see the opportunities that were at my doorstep essentially and wanted to work hard to help myself and my family. So the work ethic and just putting in the time to do things right stuck with me and I think led me to succeed.

Dave Dalton:

Yeah, you would think so, right? Because someone from a different background, maybe more upper middle class or however we're defining these things nowadays, might've been a little bit different. Maybe you assume certain things are going to happen, or maybe you take, I hate cliches, maybe you take certain things for granted, whatever, but obviously there's an impetus right there. Let me ask you this, and you can tell me it's none of my business if you want to, but did you feel a little extra pressure maybe? It's like, "Hey, my mom and dad came from fairly modest means. I've got an opportunity now I got to push, push, push, step on the gas." How'd that feel?

Rasha Shields:

Yeah, I definitely felt some pressure, and part of it too is that they also had no clue how difficult law school was, because if they've never gone through it. Or a great example is, when I was like, "Oh, I'm studying for the bar, I can't make anything. I'm not going to any family functions," they'll go, "You pass everything. I'm sure you'll be fine." If you're completely outside of the legal field, you actually don't know that there are people who don't pass the bar. It is a difficult thing to do. So even just them understanding how much time I had to put in for law school and studying for the bar, that was all foreign to them. So I think people who grow up with lawyers, they've already been exposed to that. So there was extra pressure being like, everyone assumes I will succeed and I didn't know if that was going to happen.

Dave Dalton:

You hit on something really interesting, it's like you maybe felt some guilt because "I can't make that second cousin's wedding. I've got to study. It's the bar exam. I've been working for this my whole life." And again, somebody who hasn't been there, or maybe forget law school, maybe even higher level academic, whatever it is, college degree, an MBA, whatever, maybe they don't get it. So I can appreciate how that would be this subtle pressure that maybe people don't think about. Eli, how about you? Now, you mentioned I think your dad was an educator, fairly conventional, traditional, middle class, Erie, Pennsylvania background. How did that help you better or worse in law school in terms of your peers and how you performed and how it all went?

Eli Jones:

Well, I think what my parents both did, they really instilled into me the importance of hard work and staying dedicated and consistent on things. My dad has been teaching I think 28 years now. I think I can count on one hand the amount of days of school he's ever missed for illness or whatever else. And then my mom, as a business owner, she always was emphasizing that consistency and dedication to what you're trying to do is what gets you over the hump and what gets you to where you need to be. So yeah, coming from a place like Erie where a lot of people are very, you know Western Pennsylvania, very put your head down, do what you're supposed to do and good things will happen. I think I took that to law school and kind of treated it like a 9:00 to 5:00. Go to the library, do my readings, go home, eat dinner, and spend time with my wife and then go about doing whatever else. Working on time management I think was a big thing, and that dedication to perfecting what you're supposed to be doing is something that my background helped me out with a lot. In terms of how it impacted my law school experience, similar to what Rasha was saying, if you don't have a reference point for a lot of stuff, law school can be kind of disorienting at times in terms of if you're not familiar with the legal field. Sometimes, because so many people are, I don't want to say law is like a hereditary profession, but there are a lot of people at law school whose parents are immediate family or lawyers, and so when exam season comes, their families, they have a better concept of what's going on and what you're going through. Whereas my family wasn't bad about it, but it is easier to talk about it and vent to people that understand what you're going through. So sometimes I would talk about things that were going on at school and my family would be supportive but they don't fully know what I'm talking about or getting at. So there are times where those reference points where you can either, A, expect things on the front end, or B, vent about them on the tail end. You'd miss out on that a little bit as a first-generation student, I would say.

Dave Dalton:

Let's go back. You mentioned time management. By the way, we don't wing it here, we do research, we prepare. But it did say that first-gen law students have pressures in circumstances that a lot of other students don't have, and they mentioned that. Maybe they went back to law school later after undergrad. Maybe you mentioned you're married. Try balancing that, I bet, with being in class and studying 60 hours a week, all that other stuff. So there are challenges there for any law student, but I suppose a first-generation law student might feel a little differently because you haven't seen anybody else do it, right? Talk about that. I want to hear Rasha talk about that too, but talk about time management going back. You guys have been out of school for a few years, but that's a heavy hill to climb, isn't it?

Eli Jones:

For time management. Like you mentioned, I did get married. I got married in July and then moved to Virginia in August, the first year of law school. So we were kind of trying a lot of new stuff all at once. But I think time management, especially early on, because law school, it's not you're constantly turning in homework or papers, it's just being prepared to engage in class and doing the readings and going through the notes and working through your casebooks and things like that and taking your own notes at your own pace. So figuring that out and figuring out how to develop study habits was a really big thing for me. Prior to law school, I was not particularly good at setting habits and sticking with them for studies specifically. So for law school, you get these big gaps between these very long classes. I had to work at it, especially that first semester, cultivating the habit of going and finding a cubicle at the library and sitting down and just really locking down on whatever I'm supposed to be focusing on at that time, and regimenting the week in a way that you're focusing on certain classes at a pace that you know. So for example, contracts, I was not as adept at as like criminal law or some of my other courses. So I knew I'd save contracts for earlier in the day when I had more energy, whereas criminal law, which I found to be a bit more leisurely because I was interested in it more, I could save for later in the day. So working on strategizing and sticking to that habit was a big thing for me.

Dave Dalton:

That is so smart. You hit the heavy stuff in the morning or things that didn't come as natural to you and then save what was more, you said natural before. Were you a good student? Did school come easy to you?

Eli Jones:

For the most part as a youth, I would say. And then college I did fairly well. The LSAT was sort of the first time something sort of hit me square in the chest in terms of not being particularly adept at it. And then I think the LSAT sort of set the precursor for law school where it emphasized that law school's not just about your capacity to learn and retain information but also change in molding the way that you think about things. So that's a big part of law school, is that ... I think a lot of people will talk to me and think like, "Oh, you have to have a certain level of intellect." You have to be smart and you have to like to read and all that, but the shifting of how you think about things was the big thing for me, I found, in going to law school.

Dave Dalton:

Eli, great points. Let's go back to Rasha a little bit. Rasha, talk about generally maybe some of the other challenges that you encountered being a first-gen law student.

Rasha Shields:

One of the biggest challenges for a first-generation law student is feeling like you're starting off already behind, right? It's that whole concept of imposter syndrome. Or do I even belong here? So much of I think law school exams and everything is, there's so much pressure, so it can really be a mental game. So to me, it's overcoming that kind of feeling like you're behind. You may hear people talking about like, "Oh, well, I had my mom or dad review my lawyering skills memo," or, "I'm going to work with my dad's firm this summer," so they're already having things that are secure. So that was I think one of the biggest barriers or feeling like challenges that you felt like you were having to overcome a big hurdle just as everyone was starting off. So I think that was one of my biggest challenges.

Dave Dalton:

I've known you a couple years. That surprises me, because you always come across as competent, polished, energetic, whatever. It's interesting for me to hear someone like you say, "You know what? Yeah, I felt like maybe I didn't have certain things going for me that some of my classmates or some of my peers did." So what do you do about that, Rasha? You work harder, you work smarter, you find a mentor, what happens then?

Rasha Shields:

Yeah. I think when you feel that, to me, it was even more of a motivator to work harder because I felt like maybe I was behind. Part of it too is that one of the challenges is that you also just don't have a roadmap of, this is what I'm working towards. Oh, I should get an externship or I should work for big law this summer, or I should do a clerkship. Those weren't already preplanned for me as I started off. It's all kind of just trying to figure it out as I went along. So to me, it was just convincing myself that I had to even study harder than some of my peers and then also reaching out to some professors and others that those were the network that I had at my disposal. I didn't have others. So using the resources that were offered at UCLA was how I tried to make up that gap, that I at least imagined. It may not have existed, but it's more about perception is reality. So that's how I tried to overcome that feeling.

Dave Dalton:

Sure. Sure. Eli, I saw you nodding as Rasha was talking. I take it you concur with much of what she was saying. You can relate.

Eli Jones:

Yeah, I think so. Law school, especially because of how grading is handed out, they grade on a curve, and class rank is such a big thing in legal education, and the testing method is not anything you're used to. You don't take a test that's like a law school test prior to law school. So yeah, certainly, especially I would say the first whole year, I was telling myself I'm not sure I can keep up, I'm not sure that I am supposed to be here. Maybe this is a level above where I should be at. The imposter syndrome is very real. You sort of wait for the slow trickle of grades and see how you compare to your classmates. It was difficult at first. Similar to Rasha said, it emphasized the need to really buckle down and work as hard. And then eventually the confidence came after you achieve a couple of things and think, "Okay, I got it. I have the capabilities and the faculties." But definitely concur with that experience.

Dave Dalton:

How long did that take? Because I think we're running around the same theme here. Had you had a parent who'd been through an incredibly rigorous academic experience like law school, whether it's law school, med school, a PhD program, whatever, you sense that, and they relate and they tell you how to prepare and how to read and how to crack a book and how to get ready for a semester and so forth. You didn't have that. At what point, Eli, did you think, "All right, I've got it figured out"? Was that most of the first semester, end of first year? Obviously it all ended well. You're here. But when did you start to feel like, "Okay, I got it"? How long did that take?

Eli Jones:

I would say probably the end of the first year. Two semesters, I got some good grades in some classes and I'm thinking, "Okay, it's not a fluke. It happened twice. I know what I'm doing." Then you kind of have a familiarity with how law school goes from then. And then of course getting the offer from Jones Day after on-campus interview certainly did not hurt either. Whenever I got that summer offer too, I'm like, "Okay, I'm feeling good. I think I'm in a good place."

Dave Dalton:

Sure, sure. Let's talk about the makeup of your classmates and your peers when you were there. I've got data right here that says that first-gen law students tend to be more racially diverse than maybe most of the rest of the student body or the classes. Was that your experience either at UCLA or Virginia? Did you say the first gens that I know, they come from families, maybe mom or dad wasn't a lawyer, or maybe even didn't go to college? What'd you guys encounter?

Rasha Shields:

I'll start. At UCLA, I think I didn't even know who the first gen people were. One of the things I'm seeing now at law schools is that there are actually first generation affinity groups, which I think is phenomenal. But that's one of the things, is you feel like you're the only one until you talk. But I do tend to think that there are more diverse folks who tend to be first generation, but it also, it's much more a issue of socioeconomic status, which can across all racial groups. So I would find those in all racial groups, and those are people I tended to gravitate towards for bonding over common experience. I wish I knew exactly what the racial makeup was. It just wasn't something that was obvious or talked about, I would say, back when I was in law school. But I'm a little older than Eli, so maybe Eli has a better perspective.

Dave Dalton:

Pick it up, Eli. What do you think?

Eli Jones:

Yeah. So my second year of law school, I believe, they actually founded the first generation professionals group at UVA law. So it was actually fairly new when I was in law school as well. I did notice talking to my classmates in the Black Law Students Association that a lot of folks there, similar to me, did not have any lawyers in their immediate family, even folks that had parents with professional backgrounds, no lawyers. So that gets back to sort of the lack of reference point and this being kind of a new experience for people. So that was an additional commonality in addition to everyone being members of the Black Law Students Association. But in addition to what Rasha said, I did notice when the first generation group opened its doors and started getting members, that it was a very diverse group racially, but it did cut across all groups, similar what Russia was saying. The socioeconomic class and background of the various members was definitely the running theme that I noticed for sure, but it was very racially diverse when it got started.

Dave Dalton:

Let's talk about transitioning from law student to working lawyer as you are now. Talk about starting that job search. Whether it was the summary after your first year or later on, what were you looking for Rasha and where'd you go for help, assistance, guidance, direction?

Rasha Shields:

When I first came into law school, I had no idea what type of lawyer I wanted to be. When I was in college, I had little part-time jobs. I was a file clerk at a small law firm and then I ended up being a legal assistant for a solo practitioner, but that taught me nothing about what I would want to do really when I was a lawyer. So it was kind of following the herd. Once I heard, "Oh, there's going to be some on-campus interviews for first year lawyers. And if you did, well, maybe you can apply," I said, "Okay, I guess I'm going to apply." So that's how my process went. I did OCI for the firms and other agencies that came to UCLA to recruit 1Ls, and that's how I obtained the first summer associate position that I had. But it's really, it's like trial and error and just trying to follow what others were doing because I didn't know in advance what I was looking for.

Dave Dalton:

Was UCLA helpful? I mean, that's a great law school. I got to imagine they had resources, there was direction and people you could go to for help and guidance, right?

Rasha Shields:

Yes. UCLA, they had career services, so you could talk to them about where should you even be applying, but it was really the formal process of just, "Hey, here is one day where these firms will be here, or the DA's office and others." So just submitting your resume. So that's how I stumbled across my first position and then also when I was doing on-campus interviewing for my 2L summer as well.

Dave Dalton:

Eli, what about you? Talk about ... And again, you summered at Jones Day. But even more broadly than that, after your first year say, or well into your first year of law school, you're trying to get some traction, trying to make some contacts, get some career direction, where do you start? And maybe why might that have been a bit more challenging being a first-gen law student?

Eli Jones:

Determining what you want out of practice can be harder when you don't know any lawyers in terms of understanding what the difference is between various levels, whether like a smaller or medium firm or a boutique firm, or what city you want to practice in, or what field you want to specialize in to the extent that you do. That can be a little more difficult. It was kind of broader for me. I didn't really understand what it meant to specialize. In my head initially, I kind of was thinking, "Oh, I'm getting a law degree, I'm going to be a lawyer." But what kind of lawyer is a much more specific and important question. So when I came to law school and I'm starting to figure out the job search, the big thing that kind of hit me was, and UVA's career services office does a very good job of this as well, emphasizing to you what market you want to practice in and why. Making that decision was a very big deal for me as someone who had recently been married because that's a family decision as opposed to an individual decision at that point, because we're all living together and thinking about clerkship, whether or not that's viable, whether or not you want to do that. Getting the career timeline and sort of the direction was the big thing that I had to work on formulating as the first lawyer in my family. Eventually we settled on Pittsburgh, and then Jones Day sort of jumped out as an option that made the most sense for us. But making that decision and getting to the point where we decided we want to live in Pittsburgh, I want to practice in Pittsburgh and be a Pennsylvania lawyer, that was a process that took a couple of different steps and a couple of different meetings with folks to really reach that conclusion.

Dave Dalton:

How do you get there? Is it just by being around the law school, the placement office, career services, classmates? Is it by osmosis? Or did you have a mentor? If you had to look back and say, "This is where I kind of feel like I headed for certain in this direction," who helped?

Eli Jones:

Well, I would say my wife definitely helped in terms of having that conversation. We charted out our priorities for our family and what we wanted to do in my career. So that was a big part of it. But then in addition to that, many of my classmates and colleagues who are from the Pittsburgh area or Western Pennsylvania in general, talking it over with them, talking it over with my other classmates and friends, and talking to them about what they want out of practice and doing a compare and contrast, but also mentors in the better professors and mentors from other attorneys that I got connected with from classmates through law school who happened to know lawyers before they came. I was able to have discussions with a variety of people and talk through and make decisions, not to just select the city that I wanted to work in, but also eventually come to the conclusion that Jones Day in particular made sense for me. So I'd say it's a communal effort or a communal melting pot of advice and insights that I really leaned on to make the conclusions that I did.

Dave Dalton:

Well said. Rasha, what would you add? Because you must've had mentors, people who helped along the way and helped you make some decisions that got you here, and things are going well. How do you cultivate those sorts of relationships or those sorts of people that want to be in your corner and can help?

Rasha Shields:

Especially as a first-generation professional, you need mentors, sponsors even more so than potentially others may need them. So for me, it started off in law school of really finding some professors that were motivators, they were mentors, they were sounding boards. I was a teaching assistant for one, a research assistant for another, and those became really great relationships to help me also with clerkship applications. They were my recommenders and someone who would pick up the phone to recommend me to a judge here. So those became, I think, the foundation. I didn't have any other kind of network to use. So the professors were my first network. And then I would say then the judges that I clicked for became a different network, and that just kind of kept building throughout my career. So I've been blessed with mentors, sponsors that have opened up doors that I didn't even knew existed because of those types of relationships. And for me, it's just working hard, doing a good job, and reaching out to them and actually asking for their advice. That also kind of gets them almost invested in my career because they feel like they have the ability to help. So that has been what has worked for me of creating that relationship and the network of folks that have helped me get to where I am.

Dave Dalton:

You know what I liked about what you just said? You were subtle, but you kept saying, "I worked at this. I worked for this clerk, this judge. I did research for this faculty member. I worked for this professor, blah, blah." You didn't just raise your hand. "Oh, I'm raising my hand in class. Oh, I'm getting good grades." You were proactive. It seems like you sought out opportunities so someone could see what you could do. And suddenly that makes it pretty easy for somebody to pick up the phone and make a recommendation or be a great reference, whatever. But I'm getting out of my lane here, but I think what you said there packed quite the punch. We have two more questions. You guys have been great by the way. Two more questions, and these are my favorite two questions. I'm tipping my hand here. I think you're going to like this. Okay, looking back, we'll go to Eli first, is there anything you wish you'd known? Go back to young Eli. He's in law school, maybe early second year. What do you wish you'd known that you know now?

Eli Jones:

Well, funny enough, it's actually what Rasha just got done saying. It was, the network and the importance of having people in your corner makes such a big difference. And because, similar to what we were talking about earlier, hard work is obviously important in this profession, but so is people you know and cultivating positive relationships with, not just your classmates, but professors and visiting judges who come in. Law schools do a great job of bringing people in to talk to students. To be honest, a lot of people go and they just enjoy the free lunch. But going up to shake hands, getting business cards, all of this stuff, and getting your name out there in a positive way and having people know who you are can make all the difference in the world. So really cultivating and working on that positive network was something that I wish I would've gotten started on earlier, working on getting better at doing that every day, but I wish I'd gotten a better headstart on it. So that's what I would've changed if I was younger.

Dave Dalton:

Interesting. Rasha, what would you say? What do you wish the younger Rasha had known when she was early in law school or trying to get her career going?

Rasha Shields:

Yeah, I'll piggyback on what Eli said, the importance of relationships. It was clear to me that I needed the professors and other things like that. I didn't realize until later on in my career how important your peers are also in terms of developing the relationship and maintaining those relationships. I went to law school pre-social media, so now it's a lot easier to stay in contact with people and actually feel like you haven't lost contact because you could follow them on LinkedIn and other things, comment. But back then, I wish I had known there that it would've been very important to also maintain those relationships that you had. And because again, I think lawyering is all about the relationships. I went to school with people that we had great interactions, but just lost touch, and it's a lot harder to reach out to them and like, "Oh, hi, you're now general counsel of this company. I'd love to take you out for lunch." You can do that, but it's a lot easier and seamless if you've developed those relationships and maintain them throughout the entire time.

Dave Dalton:

Sure, sure. Good advice. Last question, and forgive me if it's too similar to the previous question, I don't want to play demolition derby with your responses here, but is there any advice you'd give to a law student or someone about to graduate from law school? We talked about the importance of networking, contacts, hard work. Anything else come to mind? Rasha, you first.

Rasha Shields:

I'm going to take a word that you used, but being proactive. You have to take ownership over your legal career, and you have to reach out to people. Especially when people say like, "Hey, feel free to reach out to me if you need anything." Actually taking them up on that offer and maintaining contact and staying in contact. I have mentees that some of them are very proactive and that has kept me invested in their careers. So over the years, I've maintained contact. There's others that'll have a great conversation once and then never hear from them again, and it's a lot harder to keep those relationships going. So being proactive and following up with your mentors I think is a great key to succeeding.

Dave Dalton:

Very well stated. Eli, the pressure's on, I made you go last, because she probably stole all the good soundbites, but is there anything you relate to a law student or a lawyer very early in his or her career, some advice?

Eli Jones:

Yeah, I think it's related to what Rasha was saying, about being proactive, but I would say be confident. It can be intimidating when a judge or a very established lawyer comes to your law school and they just gave a talk. You might feel, "I don't want to bother them. I don't want to be in their space." You should be confident. Take that step. They're there for a reason to meet students. Take that effort to be proactive or reach out to that professor. It might take a couple of tries because people are busy, but remaining confident and reminding yourself that you're where you're supposed to be and that you have the skills and the charms, I guess, for lack of a better word, to make a positive impact on people, really would've helped me stay proactive. So I think that's really important, is to be confident in who you are and to make those connections.

Dave Dalton:

Rasha, Eli, we will leave it right there. Hey, thank you both.

Rasha Shields:

Thank you for having us.

Eli Jones:

Thank you for having us.

Dave Dalton:

For complete biographies and contact information for Rasha and Eli, visit jonesday.com. Subscribe to JONES DAY TALKS® at Apple Podcasts or wherever else quality podcasts can be found. Perspectives and Pathways in JONES DAY TALKS® programs are both produced by Tom Kondilas. As always, we thank you for listening. I'm Dave Dalton. We'll talk to you next time.

Speaker 4:

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